November 22, 1963
In less than
"If you shut up the truth and bury it under the ground, it will but grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it bursts through it will blow up everything in its way."
- French author Emile Zola
"Treason does never prosper.
What's the reason?
When it prospers,
None dare call it treason."
Sir John Harrington
Interviews with Wim Dankbaar
Radio interview 11/23/2007 hour 1 Click
Radio interview 11/23/2007 hour 2 Click
To read another interview with pictures Click here.
To read the interview in dutch Click here.
Hanna Wagenveld is a student of the Belcampo highschool (5 HAVO) in Groningen, Holland. To read Hanna's award winning scription in dutch Click here.
Copyright: Wim Dankbaar 2003
Kennedy murder solved?
An interview with Wim Dankbaar
Wim Dankbaar, a dutch entrepreneur (41), financed a private investigation into the murder of the 35 th president of the United States of America. The results will be shown in a TV documentary. The investigation was conducted by retired FBI agents, led by Zack Shelton, a 28 year career FBI agent. They have recently submitted their investigative report to Attorney General John Ashcroft with the request to reopen the case. What we wanted to learn from Mr. Dankbaar is how these conclusions differ from the many conspiracy theories circulating about this case.
How did you get involved in all of this?
I have an interest in this case since 1988. It started with a british documentary airing on dutch television, where I saw a film fragment of Jack Ruby saying to the press that powerful people were behind this murder, and that they would do anything not to let the truth come to the surface. He clearly hinted that he had been forced to kill Lee Harvey Oswald. I had never seen this footage and I found it remarkable to see one of the main players confirm on camera that there was much more to it. Do you know the fragment I'm talking about?
No , I never saw it.
I thought so. I was rather fascinated by it, because until then I had always assumed that America was the ultimate example of freedom and democracy and like many others, I would never have thought a coup d' etat could occur in that country. But that was exactly what Ruby tried to hint at. Then you start to read books and look in depth into the case. Over the years this went with waves of intensity. I think I went through a similar process as Jim Garrison and other researchers.
Please explain who Jim Garrison was.
Image: Jim Garrison
Oh yes, he was the district attorney of New Orleans. He is portrayed by Kevin Costner in the movie JFK. When you start to study the evidence you quickly find the official conclusion is a total fraud. The lies that have been told are insulting your intelligence. From one astonishment into the next. No one of course is going to read all 26 volumes of the Warren Report. That's exactly what Allen Dulles said. He was the former CIA director who was fired by Kennedy for the Bay of Pigs invasion. Then he is appointed by Johnson for the Warren Commission. I mean, how can you have a man who hated Kennedy, investigate his murder? That whole commission was full of Kennedy haters. Anyway, those who closely looked at the evidence would quickly find the Warren Report is all baloney. But in those days the words of these honorable men were sacred. The views of the government were hardly questioned.
Image: Allen Dulles
Ok, but how did you get in touch with the people who are now your partners?
Two years ago I accidently discovered their website. The core of the story was the confession of a man who claimed to have fired the fatal shot from the grassy knoll. I started to read with extreme skepsis, but I discovered that this man had many details, which by the way fitted exactly with what I had learned over the years and deemed plausible. His name is James Files and he is serving a jail term for attempted murder on a policeman.
I was rather amazed that I didn't know his name , the more so because he had made his confession as long ago as 1994, and I was told the website had been up since 1995. When I entered the name James Files on the Internet, I found that 9 out of 10 articles tried to make it clear his story was totally incredible. I then set out to closely investigate all these criticisms and I came to the conclusion they were all superficial and didn't hold water.
Can you name an example?
Yeah sure! For example they said that the weapon Files claimed to have used, was more a pistol than a rifle and would have an enormous recoil. They said it "kicks like a mule". Therefore Files could never have seen what he said he had witnessed through the scope of his weapon. The first thing I did was sending an email to one of the gunshops I found on the Internet. I just acted as a potential customer and asked whether the Remington Fireball was a pleasant weapon. That man started advertising the weapon immediately. One of the most sophisticated guns ever made etcetera. When I inquired about the recoil, he said it was nice and steady. Ultimately I told him why I asked. He was quite amused and said that the alleged murder weapon of Lee Harvey Oswald had a lot more recoil. He even added that whoever said that the Fireball had big recoil, had a lot to learn about firearms.
I see, so you checked a lot of all the criticism?
Yes, all of it and it just didn't hold ground. So I got intrigued more and more by the confession of James Files.
What else did you check?
Much more, there was more than enough skepsis. Another statement was that Files would never have had the time to do all the things he said he did.
He states that he has bitten the shell casing after the shot and left it there on the on the picket fence on the grassy knoll. Then he put the weapon back in his briefcase and turned his jacket inside, put it on and walked away. All the critics shout he would never had the time to do all that, because all the bystanders stormed to the knoll right after the shots, since that is where most bystanders had heard the shots coming from.
Yes, that's what I have always heard too.
It's because the conspiracy theorists are eager to point out that a shot came from the grassy knoll, in front of the president. They are right and that's why they say everyone ran towards the grassy knoll. That is true, but not immediately. Files says that everyone stood frozen and stunned and even the policemen looked as if they were waiting for someone to tell them what to do.
I was quickly able to determine that Files was right. In one of my photobooks there's a picture of the grassy knoll with the press bus in front of it. No soul on the knoll yet. This was the last vehicle in the motorcade, so it must have taken at least 30 seconds for the bus to reach that point. The president's limousine had almost come to a stop and the press bus still had to make a sharp turn of 120 degrees.
Image: The grassy knoll 27 seconds after the shots
What did you do next?
I called Bob Vernon, he is the man behind the website. In subsequent conversations he gave me more and more background information. I asked him why this information had not been published to the world yet. He told me that he had been dealing with major television networks on two separate occasions. On the last occasion, they were in full swing already for weeks, up to the editing in their studios. He showed me selections of all that footage. What I saw, was professionally made with typical American newscasters etcetera. It was obvious that money had not been an issue.
But both projects were suddenly cancelled from the very top. He explained to me it had everything to do with interference by the CIA. I won't bother you with the details, but it made me realize that the only way to get this done is to make a production with independent money. That's how I ended up being the investor for this project.
What are the conclusions of the film? What do we get to see?
I wish I could answer that in just one sentence. The first thing people want to know is: Who fired the shots and who were behind it? It can't be answered in two seconds. If you want to hear who did it as quickly as possible, my answer would be: A combination of CIA, Mafia, Texan oil-millionaires, anti Castro Cubans and high officials in the military and government. In effect, of all the different theories on who was behind it, our answer is: "All of the above", excluding the KGB and Castro. Those are disinfo stories, tossed in there by the CIA on purpose.
All those groups together? That does not sound very credible!
That I cannot help. It's not my fault that the public does not know that all these groups worked tightly together and were in fact sides of the same cube. But it is so clear. Everything roots back to the Bay of Pigs. All those groups worked in paramount on that and they all had a common interest to get Cuba back.
What about concrete persons?
Well, our investigation identifies 4 shooters, two of them are still alive. The other two have been murdered in the seventies. They are proven and documented hitmen who worked both for the CIA and the Chicago mafia family. Their names are James Files, Charles Nicoletti, John Roselli en Marshall Caifano. Their boss was the legendary Sam Giancana, the head of organised crime in Chicago. Moreover, we have two other participants on camera involved in the planning of the murder. They both support and corroborate the confession of James Files.
Image: Sam Giancana, Image: Johnny Roselli, Image: Charles Nicoletti
Who are they?
The other participants are Chauncey Holt and Tosh Plumlee. Both CIA contract operatives. Tosh Plumlee was a pilot and one of Chauncey Holt's specialties was counterfeiting and forgery of documents. Tosh Plumlee is still alive, Chauncey died a few years ago, but we have their testimonies on film. Chauncey also worked for mafiabosses like Pete Licavoli, the boss of Cleveland, and Meyer Lansky. Holt was one of the so called "three tramps". Three shabby dressed men who were arrested on Dealey Plaza. Photographers have taken 7 pictures of them. These men have always been the subject of intense and wild speculation. We show convincingly who they were: Chauncey Holt, Charles Rogers and Charles Harrelson. Charles Harrelson is a well known contract killer as well as the father of Woody Harrelson.
Image: Chauncey Holt Image: Charles Harrelson
The actor of Cheers?
Yes, he's now serving a life-time jail term for killing a judge.
Gee, that sounds interesting, but how do I know all this is the definite truth and not just a well planned fantasy story?
You're going too fast. I already said this is not a painting of a few strokes. First, this is not the final and full truth. The Kennedy Assassination is a big jigsaw puzzle. We have placed many pieces, but we don't claim to have all of them. For example, it is clear that there were more hitteams on Dealey Plaza, and we have only one. Possibly the three tramps were another hitteam, but we cannot determine whether Rogers and Harrelson were shooters. But even if so, there were also gunmen in the Texas Schoolbook Depository and we do not know who they were for sure. We have indications, but we will stay away from unsubstantiated or inconclusive evidence. Our motto is: We offer no conjecture or theory, only hard evidence.
How do you convince someone this is not a nice scam?
Yes, I'll get to that. What you have to look at first is the people who conduct this investigation. Zack Shelton is a name you won't know but he worked 28 years for the FBI. He spent most of his career on the Organised Crime Task Forces of Chicago and Kansas city. So he knows all these mob figures and put several of them behind bars. The movie Casino with Robert de Niro for example, is based on a true story and Zack has busted some of those characters. Do you remember the James Byrd dragging death, where three white guys dragged the colored guy to death behind a car?
Image: Zack Shelton
Yes, did they not get the death penalty?
Yes, Bush did that when he was still Governor of Texas, but that case was Zack's too. We are talking about someone with a sparkling background and impeccable career in law enforcement, who is unlikely to risk his good name with a "scam". But it gets better still: Zack has called upon and received help of over a dozen of his former FBI collegues and they are certainly not rookies. Jim Wagner was head of the Organised Crime Task Force in Chicago, Art Pzifenmayer had the same job in San Diego, he is now CEO of a big casino. Michael Wacks was the undercover agent who busted Carlos Marcello. Much like they did John Gotti, with an undercover surveillance sting. Carlos Marcello was the mafiaboss of New Orleans, one of the most powerful ever. Michael's brother, Peter Wacks, led an investigation into the illegal activities of Jimmy Hoffa and his Teamster's pension fund. He was also awarded as the FBI's "best street agent". Well, I can go on like this, I am not yet halfway and the number of agents helping Zack is still growing. So everyone who wants to accuse us of a scam accuses these people also. Every single one of them worked 20 years or more for the FBI. O wait, I forgot to mention James W. Sibert. He was a World War II hero, a bomber pilot who did many raids over Germany. He received several awards for courage and spent 21 years in the FBI thereafter. As a special agent he was present at Kennedy's autopsy. Thank God he's still alive, he's 84 now, but he tells crystal clear, for the first time on camera, how Gerald Ford and Arlen Specter have tampered with the evidence. Arlen Specter is the artist who fabricated the infamous "single bullet theory". He is now a senator for Pennsylvania. Ford and Specter are two surviving men who sat on the Warren Commission. They both have written books in an attempt to confirm the lie about Lee Harvey Oswald.
Ford wrote "Portrait of an Assassin" and Specter "Passion for Truth". It's just disgusting!
Image: Gerald Ford Image: Arlen Specter
You are talking about some important people here!
I don't care. Hitler was important too. Should I therefore deny he was bad? "If you do the crime, you do the time". And even that, they didn't do. I have befriended the ex-girl friend of Oswald and know exactly what kind of man he really was. He was a CIA spy, a patriot, who has been used and discarded like trash. They duped him by telling him to infiltrate the plot and prevent the assassination. Very clever actually, if you think about it. It's the only way to get your patsy at the right place at the right time. And Lee thought he could sabotage the hit, right till the end. That's when he fully realized he had been duped. The truth is he was a real hero. And those crooks keep pounding their lies until this very day. They know better of course. Yep, it makes me angry. If you repeat a lie over and over, the public will swallow it, especially if it's told by people of authority.
OK, so the investigators are men of professional background, but that's still no guarantee they found the truth!
No that is correct, but I had not finished yet. You asked if it could be a scam? Then you first have to know that the original lead on James Files came from the FBI. Not from a tabloid reporter or something. The tip was given to Joe West, a private investigator, who was working on a lawsuit to exhume JFK's body. He wanted to prove that Kennedy was hit from the front. That already indicates that Joe was sincere. A new and independent autopsy would prove sure as hell that the first was a total fraud.
But Joe West has never heard a full confession from James Files. Files didn't want to talk. Only if Joe could arrange immunity for him, he would think about it. During that time Joe had to go in hospital for heart surgery. The operation itself was a big success, right after he was straight up in bed again, drinking a coke and talking your ears off. Then out of nowhere a complication arose, he went into a coma and never came out of it. With his death, his exhumation suit also died. We all think Joe was murdered by an overdose of the wrong medication. I'll spare you the details, but the attending doctor is still to be found for example. Joe's death is one of three reasons why James Files decided to tell his story to Bob Vernon, who took over from Joe.
What were the other two reasons?
Save it for later, I first need to finish this. James Files finally confessed to Vernon. Files says he acted on orders of his mentor Charles Nicoletti. Nicoletti was one of Giancana's most trusted hitmen. Files was the driver and bodyguard for Nicoletti. Six months before the assassination Nicoletti informed Files about the contract on Kennedy and that he and Johnny Roselli were to take part in it. Originally Files was only ordered to drive the weapons to Dallas, test fire them and explore the area. All orders came from Sam Giancana and the CIA. Files had been recruited for the CIA by David Atlee Phillips. This man was a spider in the web on the part of the CIA for the planning of the hit. His name pops up in almost every covert CIA operation, including the coup in Chile that left Allende dead and brought Pinochet to power. Phillips was also the CIA handler of Lee Harvey Oswald. His star rose to CIA director of covert operations for the Western Hemisphere.
Image: David Atlee Phillips
I won't sum up all the details, you can find them all on the website, but Files drove to Dallas a week before. On the morning of the assassination he met with Roselli and Nicoletti. He did not know how they had arrived in Dallas, nor did he ask. The only thing Roselli told him is that he had arrived on a military airplane.
But our other participants, Chauncey Holt and Tosh Plumlee, explain exactly how Roselli and Nicoletti came to Dallas. Tosh Plumlee was the pilot who flew Roselli the night before and Chauncey Holt had driven with Nicoletti all the way from the Grace Ranch in Arizona. That ranch was owned by Pete Licavoli. It is a fact that Plumlee, Holt and Files did not know each other, yet they all say the same thing and corroborate each other. If you say this is a scam, you say that these three men put it together and subsequently fooled a team of experienced FBI agents.
And me too of course. I threw my good money in there without looking? Or you could argue that these FBI men are part of the scam and risk their reputation with a nonsense report to Ashcroft. I trust you see this is far more unlikely than this being the simple truth. A scam involving so many people would fall apart sooner or later. I challenge anyone to shoot holes in it. We'll shake hands with the first one who can catch us in a lie. We are not talking about just someone who writes a book about JFK's alleged cocaine usage, which cannot be substantiated by the way. We are talking about world class investigators here, who check and double check everything. It's actually amazing that cocaine story is front page news and ours is not yet.
But according to you, the JFK assassination was also a scam involving many people. Why then has that not fallen apart yet?
That HAS fallen apart! How many do still believe the Warren Report? A majority of 90 % believes it is a lie. That's why that movie JFK was such a blockbuster. But by lack of hard evidence the lie has never been disproven. That's why they can keep it up.
You've got a point I guess, but what about that fourth shooter? So far I count three.
Yes, good question, the fourth shooter is Marshall Caifano. We did not get his name from Files. Giancana, Nicoletti and Roselli have all been murdered in the seventies. Coincidentally just before they were called to testify for the Church Committee and the House Select Committee on Assassinations. That was a second investigation into the murders of JFK and his brother RFK.
Image: Marshall Caifano
Files, just like many other mafia men, has a code not to talk about people that are still alive. He also claims to know the killer of officer J.D. Tippit.
Who was Tippit?
He was a cop that was killed 45 minutes after Kennedy. Lee Harvey Oswald was also charged with that murder. According to Files the real killer is still alive.
Ok, but how did you find Caifano?
Zack was given a name by colleague Jack O' Rourke. The name was Joe Granata, a prisoner in Wyoming who used to run with Charles Nicoletti. Granata has been a credible witness for the government. His testimony has sent several criminals to prison. Joe Granata has never given unreliable information. He told Zack that Nicoletti had told him on two occasions that Nicoletti, Roselli, Marshall Caifano en Jimmy Sutton, were the "hitteam op Dealey Plaza"
Is that on camera?
No, on audiotape. It's a phone conversation, because no camera was allowed in that prison. Anyway, Granata confirms the exact story of James Files. The strong part is that James Files was James Sutton in the sixties, that is his real name. He changed it later to James Files. But Granata also adds a new name. Caifano is 92 and still alive. That's a good explanation that he was not mentioned by Files. I can't help it, but I have some respect the man. He has his own codes. He killed a lot of people of course, but in a way he's also a hero. Without him we would never have known the truth. Compare him with Arlen Specter and I'm not sure who the bigger criminal is.
Ok, for Files, Nicoletti and Roselli you have more than one source, but for Caifano only one?
Hold on, Zack never walks on thin ice. We also have Michael Corbitt. He just wrote a bestseller with the nephew and godson of Sam Giancana of the same name. Double Deal, check it, I hear it's good. Corbitt was a courier for Giancana. He testifies on camera that Caifano has bragged to him that he was on Dealey Plaza "when history was made".
But not that he was a shooter?
No, unfortunately, you can't win them all. I rather would have seen we had done more trouble to approach Caifano. Zack has called him, but he soon turned aggressive. Caifano's wife said to talk to her son Richard Caifano, he is a lawyer in Chicago. I was very much in favour of making a deal with Caifano to tell us what he knew in exchange for publication after his death. After all, he is 92 and somehow these guys are proud of their hidden place in history. Maybe I was naïve, but no shot is always a miss. So I sent Richard Caifano an email with exactly that proposal. Didn't get an answer. His secretary had already said he had nothing to say to me.
Yeah, that's to be expected!
That chance was big of course, but now he is implicated while he's still alive and the chance he will say anything is as good as gone. Therefore I thought it worth to try it. Also because I belong to the school that finds the truth more important than justice. The public needs to know these things are actually happening in the so called democratic United Sates. Only then you will be able to prevent it in the future. If it could happen then, it can happen now. I blame the pawns that fired the shots much less than the ones that ordered it. And they have escaped their penalties anyway. They will always have the pawns. When these pawns, like James Files, open their books endangering their own lives, I would almost give them an award. Probably debatable, but that's my view.
So you are actually taking part in the investigation yourself?
O yes, I can't keep my fingers from the cookie jar. For some things I have more time and knowledge than Zack and his associates. Searching the Internet for example. Everything is now published on the web. The whole Warren Report, the hearings, articles, interviews, entire books even. Once you know how to search you have it at your fingertips. I have given Zack some leads that really led somewhere. Moreover, you can now communicate with everyone in the world at no cost. Doesn't matter if they are in Sydney or Los Angeles.
What about erasing those records?
O yeah, that's a good one. Real funny too. Files says he was in the 82 nd second airborne in Laos. He says he was part of a operation called "White Star". So there should be records of Files in the 82 nd airborne, or Sutton as his name was then. But there weren't any. Bob then hired the historian of de 82 nd airborne. John Grady was his name, he died last year. But he has ultimately proven that Files was telling the truth. Jim Marrs also discovered something.
Yes, He is on our project too. He wrote Crossfire, the book that was the basis for the movie JFK. He was a soldier too in Vietnam and had never heard of White Star. But when he told Colonel Fletcher Prouty - The man portrayed by Donald Sutherland, or Mr. X in JFK - Prouty confirmed the existence of this operation
Image: Jim Marrs
What was so funny?
Well, when that man Brady was investigating in 1998, he received a telephone call from a Secret Service agent: Why are you communicating with James Files? Like he didn't know, ha ha. Of course Brady simply explained and that agent told him that "The President and his staff are very concerned about James Files. He is considered a threat to national security". The President was Clinton at the time. In 1995 the FBI has declared Files "not credible". But the President and his staff are still worried about this "liar". That's what I found funny. You know what's funny too? The FBI has indeed interviewed Files. One of their smarter questions was how Files could prove his association with Charles Nicoletti. Files gave them a dozen people who could confirm that. Among others Marshall Caifano, mind you. That was in 1995, long before we discovered Caifano's role in Dallas. None of those men have ever been approached. Instead they proclaim Files is "non credible". The authorities are still covering this up. Some people ask me why we can do what the government has failed to do despite millions of tax dollars. There's your answer. The government has been trying to cover up, what we are trying to expose. Maybe difficult to accept, but if you make the switch, everything falls into place.
Why has Files made his confession? Isn't this very incriminating for him?
Yes, you would come back on that. The first reason is Joe West. He thinks to know for sure that Joe was murdered for his digging into this case. Mainly because of his suit to exhume JFK. Moreover, there was a good chemistry between Files and West, they liked each other, but Joe has never heard the full confession of Files .
Image: James Files and Joe West
The second reason is that Files has turned religious . Born again Christian they say over there. An element of clearing his conscience also plays a role.
The third reason is that both Files and Bob Vernon had received clear threats to stop with all of this. Those threats came from organised crime as well as the government. To name just a few examples: Vernon has been shot at from a car, while barbecuing in his garden and Files received a message from a mob lawyer to "keep quiet and lay down by your doggy bowl". Bob's proposal to Files was then: "If they want to take us out, let's leave them something for history!" Files has stared in silence thru the window for a minute, according to Bob the longest minute of his life. Finally Files turned around and said: Ok, bring in the cameras tomorrow!
There is a fourth reason and that is that James Files thinks he will never be tried for JFK. He knows the powers behind it and they have too much too loose. I'm afraid that Files is right again.
By the way, all three participants before our cameras have something of remorse. They have been recruited for these jobs under disguise of patriotism, but began to doubt whether it was all so correct what they did.
So if I listen to you, you don't expect much from Ashcroft either?
A diplomatic answer would be let's wait and see, but an honest answer is No. We won't get any reaction at all or a bullshit standard letter that the matter has been looked into extensively and this is insufficient to justify re-opening the case.
Image: John Ashcroft
Why so pessimistic?
I am not at all pessimistic. At least for getting the truth to the surface. After all we didn't need the justice department to uncover what we have so far. I don't expect much of Ashcroft, because I am convinced that every president since Kennedy, except Carter maybe, has known exactly that Dallas was one big coup and the Warren Report one big lie to fool the American public.
So Bush knows that too?
Don't open my mouth about Bush. His dad was up to his neck in this. That is my personal opinion. Don't connect that to our production. We don't mention him there.
Yes, but now it's getting interesting!
Ok, there are numerous indications that Bush senior has a lot to hide in this case, but no conclusive evidence. That's why I want to stick to the hard facts and confessions.
Nevertheless I would like to come back on that.
Alright, save it for another time and consider it my personal opinion. Ask yourself first why George W. has just postponed the declassification of files about past presidents. He turns back an earlier decision of Clinton with that. What were we talking about?
Yes, the pressure to make something happen has to come from the public, mobilized by the media. Just like with the movie JFK. If you saw how that movie was attacked, even before it was released, you start to see the big picture. But it became a blockbuster, because it offered a more plausible alternative. This despite the fact that it was not presented as the definite truth, but rather as a mix of facts and fiction. That is the difference with our film. We come with names, evidence, facts and documents. But Oliver Stone's movie was instrumental in establishing the Assassinations Records Review Board, but they didn't produce anything significant either. It was shut down in 1998 and the CIA has never released all the files.
So according to you this was much bigger than commonly thought?
Sure, if you think about it, that's the only logical explanation we still don't have the truth. And that while 9 of 10 Americans do not believe the official government position. Johnson had locked all the files on this case until the year 2039. The reason is "national security". Every intelligent person can see there is no national security interest to keep this case closed for over 40 years. We are talking about the security of the ones who did it.
But who were those actually?
We have no complete answers, but you can at least include Johnson, Hoover, Nixon, Texan oilmen like Sid Richardson, Clint Murchison and H.L. Hunt. Those were the richest Americans of that time. The night before the murder, there was a party on Murchison's estate. All these gentlemen gathered in a private meeting room there. They are all mentioned in our program. The people who have helped with the cover up are of course complicit too. We already covered Ford and Specter. Insofar as Warren Commission members had no high positions, they got them later. Most of them have been rewarded with splendid careers. It's all so crystal clear if you think a few steps bigger.
Image: Nixon Image: Hoover Image: Johnson
Is that not a problem for acceptance? I mean, lots of people are scared to even think that!
Unfortunately you are probably right. The average citizen has maybe a problem to switch that button. Many Americans can hardly accept their own elected government is simply lying to them. But the evidence lies on the table. Likewise they don't believe the CIA and mafia are working together. They pay their taxes to fund the CIA in order to protect society against enemies and criminals. Then you don't expect them to go into business with organised crime. However, the proof is as hard as a diamond.
O yes? Could you explain?
The mafiabosses involved in this were Sam Giancana of Chicago, Santos Trafficante of Florida and Carlos Marcello of New Orleans. Those three have provided their gunmen in paramount with the CIA. All three hated both Kennedy brothers, actually their very existence was threatened by the Kennedy's. It has now been documented that they worked closely together with the CIA. They are exactly the men who assisted the CIA in the plots to assassinate Fidel Castro. That has all become public in the seventies during the investigations on intelligence and assassinations. You can only guess what we don't know yet. The brother of Giancana has written a bestseller biography on him. Giancana explains perfectly how his organization and the CIA were "two sides of the same coin". He says "I have done more deals with the CIA than I have time to tell you". By the way, in that book he also says that Marcello had sent Charles Harrelson to Dealey Plaza.
Image: Carlos Marcello Image: Santo Trafficante
But it appears that your scenario is the mob did it.
That is a wrong impression. The mafia supplied their personnel. That personnel was already half mafia, half CIA. The planning was done by their bosses and the CIA, financed by the Texan oil tycoons. Where the plan originated or who proposed it first, is unclear, but what is clear is that high government officials and military people went along with it. All those generals were in General Cabell's house, watching JFK's funeral on television. With a beer and all that. They were not even present at his funeral. Cabell had also been fired by Kennedy and his brother Earle was the mayor of Dallas.
Image: General Charles P. Cabell
The mafia of course, doesn't have the power either to cover-up the murder of a president and rig the American public.
You were talking about the three tramps. One of them is the father Woody Harrelson? What is the evidence for that?
Oh, that's very simple. Chauncey Holt was another one of the three tramps, he tells his whole story and confirms Harrelson. The days before he drove with Charles Nicoletti to Dallas and delivered Nicoletti at the Cabana hotel. Those orders came from Pete Licavoli. But he also had instructions from the CIA to deliver handguns and fake ID's on the parking lot at the railroad yard behind the picket fence. He was told he would meet with Charles Harrelson and Charles Rogers there, as well as a radical Cuban exile, Homer Echevarria. These instructions came from an undercover CIA man in the Coca Cola Company. Philip Twombly, a totally unknown name in the JFK research community. Chauncey's tale is as beautiful as stunning No one knows it yet. It shows perfectly how the CIA operates in such jobs. They send several teams that know nothing of each other. "Need to know" is what they call it. Or "compartimentalized". That's why Files and Chauncey say it looked like "old boys home" on Dealey Plaza. All familiar faces, but they had no clue what their business was there. Among other people, Files mentions Orlando Bosch and Frank Sturgis, one of the later Watergate burglars, Chauncey mentions Luis Posada Carriles. Posada is a notorious anti-Castro Cuban, who is currently in a Panama jail for the latest foiled attempt on Fidel Castro's life. That happened in 2000. He was caught with 3 accomplices with bags of explosives during a Latin summit where Castro would speak. I guess you never heard of that, did you?
Image: Frank Sturgis aka Frank Fiorini
I thought so, you know why? Because this is not news that the Bush administration can use. But if you discover who those guys are, it will drop your mouth wide open. In 1976 Posada was convicted in Venezuela together with Orlando Bosch, for blowing up a Cuban airline jet. It left all 73 passengers dead. But he "escapes" from his Caracas cell in 1985, to surface in El Salvador that same year under another name, Ramon Medina. He gets that identity from the CIA and he comes to assist his CIA classmate Felix Rodriguez in the Iran Contra operations. Rodriguez is another veteran of operation 40 and a personal friend of Bush senior. That is well documented.
Image: George Bush and Felix Rodriguez
It's amazing what you discover when investigating JFK. You start to understand why so many witness have been murdered. It's incredible. Or do you think it's fine when a convicted terrorist, killing 73 citizens, can run free to do more dirty tricks for the CIA?
Thatsounds pretty disturbing, yes.
Image: Luis Posada Carriles
Yes, check it if you wish! You'll also find that they are still trying to kill Castro. This Orlando Bosch by the way - his nickname is "Dr. Death" - is released in 1987 under diplomatic pressure by Otto Reich, the then US ambassador for Venezuela.. Reich is an avid anti Castro Cuban and he has just been appointed assistant Secretary of State under Colin Powell.
Image: Otto Reich, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs
Some of these Cubans were also arrested for Watergate. Watergate has never been investigated because Ford gave Nixon a presidential pardon. Nixon had made sure to replace Spiro Agnew by Ford as his Vice President. And as you recall, Ford was also a Warren Commission member. The official story is that the Watergate burglars broke in to place some bugs. But that is not believed by everyone. You don't need 7 men to place a bug and those burglars were all CIA men tracing back to Dealey Plaza. E. Howard Hunt worked together with David Atlee Phillips and it has been proven he was in Dallas that day. Just like Frank Sturgis. His real name was Frank Fiorini and he was a lieutenant for Giancana. Martinez, Gonzalez and Barker were also operation 40 members, anti Castro Cuban exiles like Posada and Rodriguez. There seems to be a connection between Watergate and Dallas and lots of researchers think the Watergate break in had nothing to do with listening devices but was done to steal incriminating documents files exposing the conspiracy of the JFK assassination. Unfortunately this remains speculation since the case was closed by Ford and his pardon.
Image: Felix Rodriguez
It is the same bunch popping up again and again. They all go back to the Bay of Pigs. Think again about the "War on Terror", they have their own terrorists too, but you never hear about those. The art of surpression. They hold back so much about 9/11 too. Through the media you can control public opinion. David Atlee Phillips was a propaganda specialist and has said to James Files something he still recalls: I can kill more people with my typewriter, than you running around with your shotgun. I can go on like this forever. It's all connected. I now understand what Deep Throat meant when he said to Woodward : You have no idea how big this is!
Could you explain who Deep Throat was. Not everyone knows that.
Yes, he was the anonymous source that fed Woodward and Bernstein with information. They were the journalists that broke the Watergate scandal.
Ok, we were in Dealey Plaza?
Yes, we were talking about Chauncey. Chauncey didn't even know that Nicoletti would be a shooter, those are things you don't talk about on such assignments. Chauncey did not fire a shot, but he is actually our strongest witness, because he still has all the documents to backup his story. Including the letters of Pete Licavoli and Meyer Lansky. You can see immediately those handwritings match with known letters of those two But the records on Files' past have all been erased by the CIA. Initially we wanted to call the program "The man who was never born".
How do you know they have been erased?
Later, that's interesting too, but let me first finish Harrelson. Chauncey had delivered his stuff to Harrelson. This Twombly had told him that he was to take part in an anti Castro demonstration, but there was no such demonstration there. At any rate, when problems would arise, he was to report back to a boxcar with number 22. Well, when Chauncey heard the shots ring out, he saw that as a problem and he raced for the boxcar. It was a wagon that appeared to be sealed from the outside, but it could be opened if you knew better.
When he arrived, Rogers and Harrelson were already there. It didn't take long for them to hear police and other people searching on the outside, but it took very long before the boxcar was finally opened, since it looked closed from the outside. They then identified themselves as agents of the tobacco and liquor agency, say the forerunner of the DEA. They said they were undercover on a job to catch smugglers. The fake ID's were made by Chauncey himself. By the way he also made the Alek Hidell card for Oswald. The Dallas cops didn't really know what to make of it and they were therefore escorted to the police office for questioning. There they have been released through the backdoor. That is why they don't look arrested at all on those pictures. They were just escorted. For the cops, they were just "collegues"
Chauncey was pretty distressed with the situation as you can also see on those photographs. But Harrelson was pretty lame with it, he even seemed to find it somewhat funny. That can also be seen on the pictures, Chauncey suspected he may have been "coked up", as he put it.
Image: The three tramps: Rogers, Harrelson and Holt
They don't look like tramps either.
No, they are too nicely dressed and too well groomed for real bums. That's what triggered all that speculation. They have nice haircuts and are clean shaven. Actually they were told to dress like workmen, so they could blend in with railroad workers
There are no arrest photo's for these men in the police archives, nor were their fingerprints taken. Of course this should be custom with any arrest, and certainly in connection to the murder of a president. In 1992 the so called arrest records surface. They produce only written records of three men. Without mugshots and fingerprints of course. A child can see these men are not the three tramps. No pictures of these three men from around 1963 are available. Otherwise you could compare them with the three tramps. A friend of mine always says: It's staring you in the face.
Image: Under arrest?
So the police was also part of the plot?
Not all of them of course, but Sheriff Bill Decker and captain Will Fritz for sure. Corrupt like hell, which is also very clear if you read the autobiography of deputy sheriff Roger Craig. That's why Dallas was the perfect place. The lion's den for Kennedy, full of right wing and wealthy extremists. Jack Ruby worked for Giancana and was a welcome guest at the Dallas police, friendly with over half of the cops. Most of them were frequent visitors of his nightclub. They also let him in the basement to finish Oswald. Just look at how captain Fritz makes room for Ruby to shoot Oswald. He does not even look back if Ruby jumps out. "I know nothing".
Image: Ruby shoots Oswald (Captain Fritz not in picture)
So your only confirmation for Harrelson is the story of Holt?.
No, oh no, there's more. When Harrelson was arrested for the murder he is now in jail for, he has said that he could clarify the Kennedy murder, or 11/22/63 as he called it, and he had been involved in it himself. Shortly after, he retracted his statement with the excuse that he had been using cocaine.
Image: Charles Harrelson compared with the "tall tramp"
And then we have Lois Gibson's identification. Lois Gibson works for the Houston police and is probably the best forensic artist in the world. She has the highest percentage of solved crimes based on composition sketches She just has been awarded by the Guinness book of Records for that. She knows everything about facial recognition. If you see her full presentation in our program, you have no doubts anymore that the three tramps are indeed Rogers , Holt and Harrelson.
Who was Rogers?
Wait a second, I forgot to tell about Don Ervin. That's a famous criminal attorney from Houston and he is also appearing in our program. He has represented both Files and Harrelson. When he saw the picture of the tramps for the first time he said: O my God, it's him!
Mmm, and Rogers?
Rogers was CIA and a childhood friend of Harrelson. Nobody knows where he is. If he is still alive, he is still wanted for the murder of his parents. That happened in 1965. He killed them and then chopped them to pieces in the bath tub and put them in the freezer. Probably to buy time and arrange for his leaving the country. To prevent the smell of decomposing bodies, you know. When the police found the bodies, they first thought that a hog had been slaughtered. Until they saw the heads of course. So Rogers is by no means a nice man. It looks like he killed his parents because they found out about his role in Dallas, possibly through the tramp photos. Anyway, the case is still open and unsolved for the Houston Police.
Yes, but Harrelson is alive and everyone knows where he is. It would be nice if he would also open up like James Files. You see, enough can still be done to solve the case. Posada Carriles was on Dealey Plaza and is also alive. But the government does nothing. Strange not?
Yeah, by the way, that story about the shell casing, That sound rather weird to me.
You mean that Files has bitten it and left it there?
Image: John Rademacher found the casing near the picket fence
Yes, I mean, who does that as a professional killer?
To tell you the truth, I would almost have wanted he had not done that, because it sounds incredible indeed. It's the biggest target for the critics. But you have to keep in mind that Files was 21 years old. He had been killing enough people In Laos and Vietnam, so he was used to that. A guy like that can develop a cockiness, that normal people cannot readily imagine. Then again, he was young enough not to use his brains. Now that he's old and mature he says: It was stupid, but I did that! In addition he hated Kennedy. He held him responsible for the Bay of Pigs failure, where he lost a lot of friends. He took pride in his kill shot and already had a habit for leaving a trademark. He said he always bit his bullet and that the taste of gunpowder was better than coffee.
That casing was been found in 1987, at a depth in the ground consistent with a time since 1963. It has received very little attention in the media. Some small article in a local newspaper. James Files gave his confession in 1994. When Bob heard that story about his shell casing he vaguely recalled a shell had been found. Files then said: "If it is mine you will be able to recognize it for my teeth marks are on it. The end will be oval not round." It is practically impossible that Files could have known this from the media, because nothing was said about dent marks. Even John Rademacher who found that shell, did not know what the indents were. Until then he had guessed they were "ejection marks". Bob contacted Rademacher and had the casing examined by a professor in orthodontology. This professor has certified that they were indeed human teeth marks. James Files says that if they really want to solve the JFK murder they can simply compare the dent marks with his dental records. But they don't. He claims the FBI has those. Do you understand now why our investigators are RETIRED FBI agents?
Yes, but I think the casing story will be met with skepsis.
Yes, that's why I said he better had not done it. It would be easier if he had only done things that are easy to believe, but I can't help that the facts are not always obvious and credible. You've got to know something else too. A dating test was done on that casing, which indicates the casing is indeed from the 1963 timeframe The headstamp is also consistent with a manufacturing date from that period. It is an important piece of physical evidence. Maybe we can even take some DNA from it, but that's along shot I would say. .
Yes, that would be a killer!
The casing is just like the other so called implausibilities. All critics who attack James Files, at least agree that he is a "good liar". My question then is: Why does a good liar invent a story with implausibilities? A liar wants be believed, right? Why then make your story implausible? They also forget that if Files is a hoax, Tosh Plumlee, Joe Granata and Chauncey Holt are also hoaxes. But they have been used as credible witnesses for the government in several cases.
Image: Tosh Plumlee
Yes, Well, I think Nicoletti would never have left that bullet.
No, exactly. He would never have permitted Files either. Some people say that James Files knows an awful lot of details, they can't deny Files was indeed the bodyguard for Nicoletti. But, so they say, Files is agrandizing himself, he just heard the whole story from Nicoletti who actually took the shot form the knoll. Yeah, and then Nicoletti left that bullet? That casing is actually more proof that Files is not lying. He was the only one, immature enough to do that.
Was that casing found where Files said he left it?
No, Files said he left on the fence and it was found in the ground a few yards away. Maybe one of the backup people took it and threw it away when he realized it wasn't smart to walk around with evidence. Something like that.
Files also claims he was asked at the last moment to take part in the hit. That's criticized a lot too.
Yes, Nicoletti asked him that morning at 10:30. Until then, Files was not supposed to be a shooter. That decision came from Nicoletti and Nicoletti only. But he had a good reason. Roselli got cold feet. He was aware that part of the CIA wanted the hit cancelled at the eleventh hour. He was afraid that if they went through with it, they would take an enormous risk Giancana and Nicoletti wanted the hit executed, so with one shooter less, Nicoletti asked Files to serve as his backup. Files was only to shoot if it became extremely necessary. The shots were supposed to come from behind and hit Kennedy in the head, but if Nicoletti would miss, Files had to finish the job from behind the fence.
Image: Kennedy after the impact of the shot from James Files
But Harrelson was also in that area!
Yes, but Nicoletti probably didn't know that. I explained that before. They sent in more teams unaware of each other. When someone is caught they can't rat on each other. That's how it's done. "Need to know"
So there is room for improvisation?
Yes, you can't prevent that. You are dealing with people and people make mistakes. Everyone assumes this was a perfectly and meticulously planned hit, but in fact many things went wrong. Nicoletti and Holt arrived only that morning from Arizona. They had car trouble and a storm causing their delay. They could have been too late as well. And if it would have rained the whole party was off, the bubble top of the limousine would then have been on. The shot of Files was in fact one big screw-up. Nicoletti was actually angry with Files, he thought that Files had fired too soon. Because of that, the Zapruder film had to be put lock and barrel, because everyone would see clearly that Kennedy was hit from the front. Other films have been taken by the FBI. But that could not happen with the Zapruder film. That's why it was kept from the public for 14 years. It was bought by Time Life. You would expect the film would be big news and go all over the world. But no, they put it in the vault. It's so clear, looking back. If the film would have gone public, no one would have believed the Warren Commission. This also illustrates the power of the CIA with the media. When you have the media you can make the public believe what you want them to believe.
Image: The impact of the shot : "Back and to the left"
Image: JFK's press secretary Malcolm Kilduff describes impact of the bullet
What else went wrong?
Well, the fact that Oswald was captured alive. The original plan was to kill him as the "fleeing assassin". So something went wrong there. Oswald could have blown off the lids and spill the beans. Maybe he has done so, but the records of his interrogations disappeared. How much clearer do you want it? Thus Ruby was ordered to silence Oswald.
Image: Lee Harvey Oswald
Furthermore it was not intended Holt, Harrelson and Rogers to be captured. But when you have the highest authorities to cover up the mistakes, than you can get away with a lot.
Well, there were way too many shots. Entire fusillades and too many misses. Oswald could only have fired three shots in such a short time with that old rifle. That's why that whole magic bullet theory is such a joke. A child can see that's not true. And of course Arlen Specter saw it himself. He should be between four walls. He is, but the walls are of his senate office. When I see that I ask myself why I pay my parking fines.
And of course many people have been killed, who saw the wrong things or knew too much. When I have to list those examples we'll be still talking tomorrow. Actually it is a miracle, they got away with it.
It is almost incomprehensible what you say.
Maybe, but this was just a coup d'etat that was kept hidden with a stronghold on the media. And also with kill power. That day , democracy was hit hard and the connection with the present day is easy to make. That's why it is still important. Those people who say that it is long ago, history actually, do not realize how it has changed history and the democratic process. Right up to today. In addition, it is not only about the death of JFK, but also the dozens of innocent citizens that were murdered over the years, just because they knew something, Not to mention their heirs and families. Even now, people that present inside information are still being threatened. Is that history?
I will tell you something else, I forgot, but it illustrates what a theatre show this Warren Commission was. Chauncey Holt relates that two of his CIA superiors were Joseph Ball and Frank Belcher. They were business partners in California. Joseph Ball was a big shot lawyer, who also served on the Warren Commission. Check it, he has interviewed several witnesses. At some point Chauncey was told by his parents that FBI agents had come to their home, looking for Chauncey. That worried Chauncey, so he called Frank Belcher. Belcher then called Joe Ball, who was in Washington for the Warren Commission. He reported back to Chauncey "not to worry", but just to make sure, they moved him and some other people to a CIA safe house in Acapulco. Out of reach for the Commission. It was a splendour holiday mansion that Ball and Belcher owned there. I can assure this information is known to only very few people.
Are you never concerned yourself to publicize this information?
That's a question I have heard before. But No, I have only made much of it possible, but many more people are involved in this. You have to share the information, that way you are safer. The film is done and the website is there for the world to see. Jim Garrison said: If the CIA can't kill you anymore, they will resort to discreditation.
But I am curious to see how they will discredit their own FBI agents and manage to paint this story as a fairytale. The key to the truth is the media. They will have to break it.
It has never happened before that a group of impeccable FBI agents have presented their report to the attorney general, full of hard evidence and confessions of actual participants, that demolish the official version of this case. It has never happened before that four actual gunmen have been identified in the crime of the century. Please explain why that is not news.
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